Curse

The Josip · Jul 05, 2010, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by munchnabe

Ever been hit by SF or Discord in PvP or even some Hard Mode areas? HM PvE can equal a complete party wipe.

Please show me how to add Burning Spirit to my party. Thanks.

Quote:

And believe me with some of the things ive seen mesmers able to do even before the buff.... u should not be complaining

8 skills please.

(And no, this isn't a mesmer complaint so no need to mention mesmers. Mesmers are still almost the worse class but I think they are balanced, it's just that few other things are so blatantly overpowered, namely phys dmg, ridiculous-gon/SY and ER).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

Hate theory crafting and haughty noobs eh?

Pot, meet kettle.

Exactly. That thread is a good example. There's me using scientific methods, and then there's you with "ah but you didn't interview 6 million people" attempt of refuting, while at the same time not using any methods. I can think of many examples where someone using scientific methods, no matter how limited, achieved groundbreaking results in the field of science. At the same time, I can't think of anyone who acted dumb and spent time finding faults in other peoples methods, expecting others to waste hours days years on "convincing" him as if they are some religious missionaries - and who achieved some groundbreaking results in the field of science. Any field.

HigherMinion · Jul 05, 2010, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Perhaps this is the way Anet wanted it? A frontline (physicals) midline (Support damage/life support) and Backline (heals, prots)

There just is no synergy in caster skills like MoP+lots of phys damage.

Tank and Spank comeback? Noty; all teams that base themselves around Searing Flames and other nukey elemental skills are gimmicky and ill-thought out.

mage767 · Jul 05, 2010, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Melee is over-powered only when supported by caster classes. Eg:
1. Mark of pain, barbs, weaken armor from necro
2. Strength of Honor, Judge's insight from monk
3. Ebon wards from any class

Melee alone cannot and do not much damage in HM. They do, however, provide ample protection through SY and the ability to body block enemies in small corners.

Casters on the other hand can be more deadly in certain situations. Think of a SS necro echoing it all over the place against melee or big enemy groups. This is one reason why SS was the staple damage dealer in UW groups and many solo farms, before SC sins and rits took over the game. SS also works fine for vanquishes, but has largely been replaced by AP nec due to speed.

Elementalist's perform subpar in HM in regard to raw damage, unless again it is a AP ele. Therefore, it is important to consider other benefits of using eles such as mass snaring (IS), mass blinding (BS+epidemic), mass knockdowns (GS+MS), mass interrupt (MStr), mass protection (wards, ER), mass healing (ER). Since most people simply suck at playing support roles, they do not appreciate the full line of services an ele can provide.

Rits are probably the second most damaging (caster, lol?) class in GW with spirit spamming at the top of the list, used everywhere by pugs for PvE NM/HM/ZM/ZB. DwG is used in speed clears (DoA and other places).

Mesmers are the MOST mass-damaging armor ignoring class in GW at the moment. A few illusion+domination mesmers can roll through HM areas (like DoA0 faster than anything comparable. You only see their damage in concentrated fire against balled enemies. If playing alone, mandragor build works good with decent damage, while for most prefer AP mes for quickly rolling through areas.

In short, melee is really not 5x stronger than casters.

Zodiac Meteor · Jul 05, 2010, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Back in the old days fire ele's ruled PvE. Foes would scratch their heads while being blasted to death by area of effect spells. Warriors were left in the shadows as tanks, their purpose is for the ele's fire of death.

~5 years later, improved AI, improved balance, improved difficulty. Pure spell damage dealers were left in the dust as lolBOOM spell damage. Their roles changed for the better from NM to HM, different enemies requires different tactics.

I know what your getting at, "my favorite class is left in the dust as damage dealers."
I say to that, so what? Guild Wars is one of the few MMO's that tank'n'spank isn't suggested, play damage dealer in one team and healer in another.

Stop QQing, mesmers are kick ass now after the update. Fast casting = faster recharge for the win. Necro's deal plenty of damage and Ele's can support or heal.

Del · Jul 05, 2010, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Exactly. That thread is a good example. There's me using scientific methods, and then there's you with "ah but you didn't interview 6 million people" attempt of refuting, while at the same time not using any methods. I can think of many examples where someone using scientific methods, no matter how limited, achieved groundbreaking results in the field of science. At the same time, I can't think of anyone who acted dumb and spent time finding faults in other peoples methods, expecting others to waste hours days years on "convincing" him as if they are some religious missionaries - and who achieved some groundbreaking results in the field of science. Any field.

That thread was you making up bullshit, then when someone provides evidence contrary to what you're trying to prove, you disregard it. Basically, using false science to provide a fallacious argument.

munchnabe · Jul 05, 2010, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Please show me how to add Burning Spirit to my party. Thanks.

8 skills please.

(And no, this isn't a mesmer complaint so no need to mention mesmers. Mesmers are still almost the worse class but I think they are balanced, it's just that few other things are so blatantly overpowered, namely phys dmg, ridiculous-gon/SY and ER).

Ok, didnt say add burning spirit to ur party reread the quote and try again... it clearly says "Ever been hit by"...meaning u would be getting hit by, not dealing.
and if u want to get technical, summon ruby djinn mysterious summoning stone.

do u want 8 mesmer skills or 8 caster skills? and PvE only or PvP as well?

Mesmers used to and still can run through frostmaws in an insane time. 5 lvl dungeon 15 minutes record if i recall correctly it may have actually been faster than that. Thats faster than any physical. which BTW physway is not a speedclear. and if u really havent realized that in speedclears such as FoWsc the solo sins use Sliver Armor, which is a caster skill correct? only the MT uses physicals and it doesnt work well without the aid of EoE and MoP as well as some stupid spirits to deal some damage and a battle standard from the sin.
Btw in PvP atm Mesmers can take down any opponent 1v1 with the right build no brain required. they are OP to hell thank anet for slightly fixing mind wrack

Del · Jul 05, 2010, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by munchnabe

Btw in PvP atm Mesmers can take down any opponent 1v1 with the right build no brain required. they are OP to hell thank anet for slightly fixing mind wrack

Somehow i don't think this statement was thoroughly thought through.

munchnabe · Jul 05, 2010, 11:22 PM // 23:22

@Del
you are right, a small brain would be required
and ofc 1v1 would mean in gh to show who has the bigger epeen as opposed to in an actual match
I really just cant believe this guy is complaining while playing a mesmer....especially after the buff

vamp08 · Jul 05, 2010, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

I mean, you play EMo proter - sure, as far as you're concerned no change is needed but I'm sure some would like to actually do something with ele damage skills - balanced - instead of using blatantly overpowered Ether Renewal (which can only exist with split pvp and pve skills).

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Special:PvXDecode?title=Special:PvXDecode&wpBuild= OgVDMjyMP0txaT7XYBW%2BIDcB&wpName=Game+Over&Go=Sub mit

+

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Special:PvXDecode?title=Special:PvXDecode&wpBuild= OQCjUimKKPtbLcQuHXjbx%2BY5NA&wpName=Burnagon&Go=Su bmit

Look; you just won PvE with an Ele(and a para w/out SY for god's sake), thread over.

EDIT: Fixed

Bandwagon · Jul 05, 2010, 11:46 PM // 23:46

History lesson for those who care:

GW was designed as a PvP game. Warriors were the "go-to" class for dealing damage (and because of this had a viable counter from all the professions like Empathy, Faintheartedness, Guardian, Snares, Blurred Vision). Casters were designed as the midline that supported both the back and frontline.

If played right, (and this is what I personally adore about GW) a caster can keep his/her energy intact by using several energy restoring abilities, keep in mind that in most RPGs generally when a caster is out of mana (or energy as it were) they are useless and have to wait until they can get their mana back. This of course means that the caster has to sacrifice a few skill slots to devote to this design.

flash forward a few game releases later, A-net shifts gears and increases the scope of PvE in GW (IE: HM). Unfortunately HM mobs have increased armor which affects casters disproportionately relative to Physicals.

Armor reduces damage dealt by auto attacks and spells, but physicals do not rely on auto attacks only, they also deal damage with the armor ignoring +damage component of many of their attack skills. Casters (ele's and some necro skills anyway) deal only armor reduce-able damage which greatly inhibits the role of a "nuker".

Q: WTF does any of this have to do with this thread?

A: Plenty, the game was designed to favor physicals as damage dealers, the difference in PvE relative to PvP in terms of gameplay functionality is virtually unaltered. New features added to the game decrease the damage of casters further. This is the game you play and A-net is probably not going to overhaul the system with GW2 1-2 years away.
I would also like to see some numbers posted by the OP/anyone detailing how physicals are dealing more damage than casters complete with skill lists and if possible, data. I am not convinced physicals are 5x more powerful DPS wise than casters.

If you don't like this, don't play, simple as that (but you have probably heard that anyway).

I openly invite criticism.

jazilla · Jul 06, 2010, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Everyone who tried both knows that physicals can deal insane amount of damage compared to others, with insane protection (SY..).

This game always had very imbalanced builds/skills which existed on purpose because of ANets policy of "shifting overpowered metagame".

I think it's time for a change. Obviously, since next updates will deal with Paragons and Dervishes there's not much hope, but you never know.

I've been playing lately with Me/D (!) because even as melee mesmer I kill faster than as caster mesmer, even after the mesmer buff update. I mean, come on, something is wrong here. My (buffed) melee mesmer can kill monsters in HM in two hits. Two hits. Let me do that with a spell!

would you PM me your me/d melee build please. i would love to try it.

Shake N Bake · Jul 06, 2010, 12:55 AM // 00:55

@ OP: Less QQ more Pew Pew.
Srsly if you think your Mesmer is underpowerd then, go play a Melee class!!

Or stop playing GW (Omg,!awesome suggestions ftw).

On the otherhand here is à Build out there for casters that kills targets in 12-13secs
with àlLittle help from 3 Nec Heroes!
Here a little help:
1. Run Discord Caller Bar on ur Mes and the Wiki Doscord Heroes
2. Roll Face on Keyboard
3.?????
4. Profit

Srsly, I have heard people on shrooms making more sense. Stop being Butthurt that ur class isn't the Creme de la creme and deal with it (aka execept the GW mechanics and game play). If you can't go that go Play anoter Game.

Ugh · Jul 06, 2010, 12:56 AM // 00:56

You think casters have it bad? Rangers have less damage than melees and less support than casters. What are they supposed to provide?

Also, if casters are necessary for melee's d0mage, there isn't really a problem with casters (other than 'buff + spam' gameplay being extremely degenerative).

Nerfing ER might force teams to bring more support characters. A nerf to SY is long overdue, IMO. Nerfing non-derv scythe builds is necessary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/w...s-t113319.html

That OP is wrong/misleading for several reasons, but I don't feel like explaining why.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandwagon

I openly invite criticism.

You invite criticism too openly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruk1a

to OP: the more i see you post the more i think you belong in WoW it has what you're looking for, this game isn't going to change because you don't like it so give up.

With that mentality, nothing would ever get done.

Shayne Hawke · Jul 06, 2010, 01:08 AM // 01:08

There is no suggestion here.

Moved to Riverside.

Assuming there is actually an unnecessary imbalance between the damage done through melee and the damage done through casting, the proper change at this point would probably be the toning down of melee damage, and definitely not the boosting of casting damage. Along with that, it may also be necessary to tone down melee damage mitigation.

maxxfury · Jul 06, 2010, 01:11 AM // 01:11

2 Posts by Ensign..originally aimed at elems damage, but the info works fine with any caster...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

In Guild Wars, the physicals deal heavy continuous damage that's fragile, while casters deal moderate damage reliably in bursts. The reliability is shifted. Physicals have to deal with block, blind, weakness, a ton of different hexes, as well as snares in the case of melee, any one of which can cripple them; beyond interrupts, there's very little that stops a caster's damage from landing.

Consequentially, you end up with these complex support structures to make sure that your physicals are able to deal damage, while casters instead focus on shutting down physicals and delivering their burst when an opportunity presents itself.

You get the same sort of situation in PvE, where physicals dominate where they aren't covered in garbage, or when you can build a support structure; casters are superior when you don't have that support structure and fall back on the reliable burst casters give you.

That's why I say you'd need to turn the entire paradigm on it's head; the Eles would have to be the fragile offense. That would require a total reworking of the skillset and mechanics of the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Not in any reasonable fashion no. A big part of it is just how much synergy there is with physical attacks, between your own buffs, in-line damage multipliers and utility, and supporting skills that boost output of physical attackers. There's very, very little that boosts spell damage at all, and what little there is, is self buffs of straight damage; there just aren't built-in synergies and cross-character support.

It really does need to be re-designed from base mechanics.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=194

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=209

ApolloIV · Jul 06, 2010, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gift3d

casters - lots of aoe, melee - mostly single target
....

etc etc etc i really don't need to go on, this is so painfully obvious and i'm only typing it for OP's sake since he may be one of the only people in all of guild wars who does not understand it.

i think you need to take a big step back, get some medication, realize what the hell is going on in the game you are playing before ludicrously whining about it, and come back when you get a clue. this could be one of the most ridiculous "suggestions" i've ever seen on this website, and trust me that is saying a lot/

LAWL. Win. Thread should have been closed after this post.

RedDog91 · Jul 06, 2010, 02:01 AM // 02:01

this is a QQ thread about "wah...I can't kill this mob"

I have not really seen any facts from the Op to support their claim. Everything written by OP is opinion.

belshazaarswrath · Jul 06, 2010, 02:01 AM // 02:01

I checked out the build you are referring too in your first post. While it might be alright it's not terribly effective when

-Foes can't be knocked down
-There's heavy blind/anti melee/weakness/cripple
-Stance stripping
-Enchant Stripping
-My rit doesn't' feel like splintering me
-Sv/AV is going to be on enemy bars
-E-Denial

Also this build requires a hell of a lot of CASTER buffing to be as strong as it is. Also I disagree with it being the best mes build out there. I run an E-Surge that does plenty of damage, has plenty of e management, and is generally a more effective build to run (at least for me).

Also Rit's and Necro's deal assloads of damage more than your average melee character with DwG,Minion mastery,Discord or what have you.

The only caster class I can think of that lags behind are ele's in HM.

Guilds Gods · Jul 06, 2010, 02:28 AM // 02:28

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Blind

Your argument is invalid.

And no, daze does not compare

a) 90% > 50%
b) The only time Daze will render you completly useless (due to interrupt) is when your party is beyond res or you're in PvP and losing
c) You can still pull of all your attacks with daze, and only 10% with blind.
d) Daze can cause problems for melee (in some cases) blind does nothing to your caster

That brings us to another cause for melee death; the snare.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Snare_(tactic)

Say you have a melee class riding you like...you get the idea. You decide, should I:
a) Use Ice Spikes
b) Blurred Vision
c) Gale
d) Run into a group of my team mates, hoping they body block him enough for you to do what it was you were going to do

Now, this is all from an eles point of view. However, in a party of 4, 6 or 8 generaly there will be atleast one option to make your worthy foe completely useless.

But, how often can you make a caster useless? As a caster, well you could go mesmer and be a burden. But as a melee, what can you do? Use the (aprox.) 3 dazing skills and ride this caster for no apparent reason, not allowing them to...err cast their flare.

Also, u mad or something op?

Rick Thene · Jul 06, 2010, 02:41 AM // 02:41

I'm not going to argue against the truth - physicals are the better damage dealers. It's just, no one in this thread has actually given a concrete reason as to WHY this should be changed. I don't see how it's detrimental to the game at all that this is the case.